Shannon Thomas serves as Chief Information Officer at Mitchell Hamline School of Law in Saint Paul, Minnesota, one of the largest independent law schools in the United States. In addition to leading IT strategy and execution, she is completing her dissertation focused on women in IT and operates a leadership focused LLC. Her work centers on the intersection of technology, culture, leadership, and human behavior, with a particular emphasis on how bias, allyship, and organizational systems shape the future of the IT workforce. 

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

• Why microaggressions still impact women in technology careers
• How mental load at home influences retention in demanding IT roles
• What allyship looks like in real workplace scenarios
• Why leadership should focus on managing people, not positions
• How unconscious bias subtly shapes workplace dynamics
• The connection between culture, media, and leadership expectations
• Why flexibility increases both productivity and loyalty
• How inclusive leadership strengthens retention and performance

In this episode…

Matthew Connor on LinkedIn
CyberLynx Website
Shannon Thomas on LinkedIn
Mitchelle Hamline School of Law Website

Sponsor for this episode...

This episode is brought to you by CyberLynx.com  

CyberL-Y-N-X.com.

CyberLynx is a complete technology solution provider to ensure your business has the most reliable and professional IT service.

The bottom line is we help protect you from cyber attacks, malware attacks, and the dreaded Dark Web.

Our professional support includes managed IT services, IT help desk services, cybersecurity services, data backup and recovery, and VoIP services. Our reputable and experienced team, quick response time, and hassle-free process ensures that clients are 100% satisfied. 

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Transcript: 

Cyber Business Podcast – Shannon Thomas, CIO at Mitchell Hamline School of Law

Matthew: Matthew Connor here, host of the Cyber Business Podcast. Today we're joined by Shannon Thomas, CIO at Mitchell Hamline School of Law. Shannon, welcome to the show.

Shannon: Thank you, thank you.

Matthew: Before we get too far in, a quick word from our sponsors.

[SPONSOR READ: This episode is brought to you by cyberlynx.com — that's Cyber-Lynx.com. Do you know if a hacker is in your system? Most people and most companies don't — until it's too late and the damage is already done. Technology and threats are advancing faster today than ever before. At Cyberlinks, we help companies leverage industry-leading technology to stay safely ahead of threat actors. Find out more at cyberlinks.com — that's Cyber-Lynx.com.]

And now back to our show. Shannon, for those who aren't familiar, can you tell us about Mitchell Hamline and your role there as CIO?

Shannon: Sure. Mitchell Hamline is located in St. Paul, MN. We are one of the largest independent law schools in the United States, and I am the CIO there. I started in June, so it's been kind of a whirlwind lately. We're tackling the strategic plan, the budget, all of those things. I'm also in the middle of writing my dissertation about women in IT, and I have a little LLC on the side focused on leadership. So yeah.

Matthew: So you're not busy at all — just kind of coasting, getting a little R&R.

Shannon: I'm not a slacker. Getting stuff done.

Matthew: I love it. You mentioned one of my very favorite topics — women in IT. I think this is a great topic that doesn't get nearly enough coverage, and I think it's wildly misunderstood. Since you're writing your dissertation on it, you are the subject matter expert. What do you have to say on the subject? I'm going to leave it wide open for you.

Shannon: I think it's super interesting to see how things have shifted over the years. We know there are more women in IT than there used to be. We know the role of women in IT has shifted dramatically. We also know that women are less likely to go into STEM from adolescence all the way through college. So there are all these forces working against women being in IT — and yet there's so much value in having women there. We know that innovation happens best when there's a lot of diverse thought. And one of my favorite stories about women in technology is Margaret Hamilton with Apollo 11. She kept asking everyone, "What if we get some of the calculations wrong?" And they kept saying, "We didn't get them wrong." And she said, "OK, but what if we just have some backup systems, just in case?" She put code in place to handle scenarios they said would never happen — to keep critical equipment functioning if something went wrong. And lo and behold, as Apollo 11 was trying to land on the moon, things did go wrong, and her backups saved the mission. It was a huge success story.

And it's not just women — it's women and men and people of color and all the different ways people tackle problems, all coming together to push innovation and technology forward. That's what I love about it.

Matthew: I couldn't agree more. And I think the most plaguing and baffling question is why it isn't more widely accepted. I want to encourage you to be as brutally honest as possible, because I think a lot of guys will say they're advocates — they're all for it. And yet if that were entirely true, the numbers would be different. We wouldn't be where we are today. So go ahead.

Shannon: The "why" is always hard. As a researcher, we can rarely find the why directly — we work a lot with correlations. But the research suggests several contributing factors. One of the first is that women are dissuaded from studying IT in college. There's a lot of research on how microaggressions in classrooms really push women away. And then they get into their careers and the microaggressions don't stop. I still face them all the time. The number of times a vendor will talk around me — a woman who is the decision maker — to a man who reports to me, to ask what he thinks instead of what I think, is crazy to me. It's 2026. I trust my team completely — there are things they're experts on that I won't know in full detail, and that's exactly why we work well together. But I'm the decision maker. Just include me in the conversation. Don't assume I'm going to take notes. These things feel antiquated, but they're still happening.

The other thing that really plagues women is the mental load at home. There's a lot of research on how women's brains don't shut off — and the debate is whether that's biology or socialization, probably a bit of both. But the mental load isn't just the physical work at home. It's the planning, the anticipation, the monitoring, the emotional management — making sure the kid doesn't want to go to school in the morning, figuring out how to get them out the door so you can get to work. And technology doesn't stop. Ransomware isn't waiting until 9:00 AM. So it's really hard to leave the office and go home to a full second job when the office never really stops and home never stops either. A lot of women leave technology because of the weight of managing two full-time roles that both demand everything. Some of it is systemic at home, and some of it is systemic in the workplace.

Matthew: So what's the solution? I know it's not that simple — but looking at it, I've got a wife and two daughters who are finally off in college, and the mental load has reduced significantly all around. Highly recommend it — being an empty nester is the greatest thing since getting your driver's license. But even with our girls, who are spectacular students who handle their own lives, the load was real. The appointments, the logistics, the everything. It seems like at its core it's a cultural problem. The younger generation is doing somewhat better — guys are more involved — but at the same time, they're also the ones online being misogynistic in gaming spaces. So they're not fully the solution either. How do we get from where we are to where we need to be, so we stop burning out talented women and losing that diversity?

Shannon: The research suggests that the biggest component is allyship — and that looks different at different stages. The first stage is usually just uncovering that this is actually happening. Things like unconscious bias training can be a good starting point — just to open up the conversation and say, hey, maybe there are things we automatically assume. I do this too sometimes. I've caught myself thinking, "Oh, he must be so young — he has a three-year-old," and then caught myself because I have a three-year-old and I'm not that young. We mentally shortcut things — it's human nature. But being more aware of those shortcuts, and being open to the fact that we might be wrong about people, is the first step.

From there, we find concrete ways to support women in industry and in IT. That could mean looking at policy — more paid leave, work schedules that align with school schedules. As a parent, you know school starts at 7:30 and ends at 2:15. I can't get to work, put in a full eight-hour day, and pick up my kid on time. So we have to look at childcare, we have to look at the full system around the family unit that these mothers are holding up. And we have to ask: are we expecting women to be the social caretakers at work too? Are we asking them to run the social committee? Are we including men in that conversation? And beyond men and women, there's gender diversity to factor in as well. The question is: are we including people, and are we doing things that are fair?

Matthew: And really, the focus shouldn't always be on the woman having to pick up the kid. Where's the dad? Shouldn't it be 50/50? I think as a modern organization, you have to look at your employees as human beings with specific needs — whether they're a single parent or a married parent. They have certain requirements, and you need to meet those needs for them to perform at their best. They're not going to be at their best when they're constantly stressed about being late to pick up their kid. And in 2026, why are we still treating this as a women's issue instead of a human issue? This human has a child, this human has responsibilities — how do we support them? It reminds me of that Morgan Freeman quote from a 60 Minutes interview, where he says we're not going to get anywhere until you start seeing him as Morgan Freeman the man, not Morgan Freeman the black man. It's the same idea. How do we get to where we see someone as just a person with a particular need, rather than making it a women's issue?

Shannon: I think a lot of it stems from how leadership gets framed. The research suggests that people who work in women-led companies have higher retention, less turnover, and happier work lives. I think part of that is an emotional component — when women show up as their best selves, and really when anyone shows up as their best self, they're thinking of other people. They're seeing how everyone brings something to the table. There are gendered differences in how people tend to lead, and it's fascinating to think about what happens when you lead in a way that puts people first. If we let people be people first, they can also take care of their families. I have a three-year-old and a six-year-old. I have a demanding job, a dissertation, and an LLC. A lot on my plate. And one thing I've really appreciated about my boss is the flexibility she gives me. I get up, I start working while I'm getting the kids ready, I get them out the door, and I show up to work — maybe a little later than someone without kids in the morning. But I've already been working, and just because I leave the office doesn't mean I stop. Because I've had that flexibility, I probably work more than someone clocking in and out — and I'm happier, my kids are taken care of, and there's a real balance.

If we think in terms of leading people rather than managing positions, that shifts everything. We're in Minneapolis-Saint Paul right now, which has been through a lot lately — a lot of community grief and trauma. For me to just say, "OK, but where are we at with that project?" to a team member who's really struggling — that's tone deaf. But if I can say, "Hey, take your PTO. What do you need? You just had a baby — do you want me to drop off some food?" — that changes the conversation. If we had more leadership like that, we'd have far more diversity in the workplace, because it would allow people of all backgrounds, lifestyles, and family situations to show up better.

Matthew: I can't help but think it all comes down to two things. One is leaders with control issues — the ones who want to count heads and see bodies in seats from 9 to 5. Just because someone is physically there doesn't mean they're getting things done. I don't care if someone puts in one minute of brilliant work but blows every KPI out of the water and hits every milestone. Great — enjoy the rest of the week. The deliverables are either done or they're not. That's how you know someone is working. And I think that controlling mentality is a big reason we still see resistance to remote work, even when the benefits are clear. AI is doing enormous amounts of work remotely right now — it doesn't matter where the body is as long as the work is getting done and collaboration is happening.

The second is exactly what you described — the vendor who walks in and talks to the guy who reports to you instead of you, the CIO. That ingrained behavior. How do we combat that?

Shannon: That's where allyship really comes in. I can say till I'm blue in the face that I'm the CIO and people need to ask me — but I also need my team members to step in and say, "No, she's the boss. Ask her, not me." And sometimes that looks like being very direct about it, and sometimes it's just a subtle redirect. But allyship isn't just in meetings — it's everywhere. A friend of mine recently got a job, and a mutual friend who worked there was part of the interview process. My friend wondered if it was bad form to ask about how she did. And her friend said, "If we were men, we would talk about it." So they talked about it, and she got helpful feedback and got the job. I think it's two things: we need allies, and we also need women to push in a little more than we've been socialized to do.

Matthew: I think we can all learn something from Donald Trump in that regard — not being political, but he clearly demonstrates that with enough self-belief, you can just go out and do things. None of us now have an excuse for not trying. My wife does this with our girls all the time — "Matt would just do it, so why wouldn't you? Just do it." But going right back to culture — we're raised differently from early childhood. Boys don't cry. Girls are treated more delicately. We're culturally putting limitations on them from the start, treating girls as weaker, and then they internalize that. And before puberty, there's no biological reason for it at all. You see little girls flying around climbing gyms like they're monkeys while the boys can barely do a pull-up. It just shows how early we start culturally disempowering girls. And I don't know how we fix that other than slowly, over time — which is frustrating when you like things done quickly. But changing culture is like changing the course of a river. It's possible, but it takes a long time.

I wonder, though — do you think Hollywood and entertainment have a role to play here? I think there's something to the idea of life imitating art. If we're heading toward a world where more and more human interaction happens through screens, then the culture people are absorbing comes largely from what they're watching. Shouldn't the content creators — TikTok, YouTube, Hollywood, the TV studios — be producing content that shows the world the way we'd like it to be, rather than the worst version of what it is?

Shannon: Yeah — the Barbie movie is a great example of that. I do think that would help. But we also have to be careful, because as consumers of media, we can easily fall into echo chambers that just confirm our existing biases depending on what we're consuming.

Matthew: That's the real downside of social media right now — the algorithm feeds you only what keeps your attention, and it becomes an echo chamber. But that's different from intentionally produced TV and film, which is more deliberate. A lot of quick social media content is sadly very toxic, and people are consuming it in massive quantities. I don't know how we really combat that. We came here today to solve the world's problems — that is the entire goal of this podcast — and we've made very little progress. We've identified some problems but solved nothing yet.

Shannon: Maybe that's all we can do — have these conversations and raise awareness. Because instead of just saying "not all guys," the real question is: did you stop the bad joke? Did you redirect the vendor who walked past the female CIO to talk to the man instead? Did you actually do something in that moment? Because if you were a real ally, you would have stopped it right then. You would have said, "No — she's the boss. Why are you looking at me?"

Matthew: And it doesn't always have to be overt.

Shannon: Exactly. I'm in Minnesota — we're not exactly known for confrontation. It doesn't have to be, "I can't believe you would mansplain to her how software works — she's a CIO." It can just be a subtle shift: someone gets asked a question and they simply say, "I don't know — Shannon, what do you think?" and redirect it quietly. But conversations like this one matter too, because so many people don't believe microaggressions still happen — that sexism is still showing up in the workplace. And they're always shocked when I say it happens constantly. "But that's illegal," they say. Yeah. And yet here we are.

It's fascinating, and telling — a woman who is direct gets called aggressive, while a man who is direct gets called a leader. It shows up even in language. Referring to Trump by his last name but Kamala by her first name. It seems nitpicky, but it's pointing to something bigger underneath. People are like tubes of toothpaste — when life squeezes them, what's inside comes out. If your first reaction is to call a direct woman aggressive but not a direct man, that's revealing something. It may be unconscious bias, but pulling it to the surface and talking it through is exactly the work we need to do.

Matthew: That's why I keep coming back to Hollywood. If we saw more films with strong female leadership — where a woman being assertive and direct was treated as normal and good, where the people around her showed that it was accepted — that normalizes it. Instead, we still see so many disempowering tropes. The damsel in distress. The weak woman. And that becomes the default image. When the rest of the world looks at America, they see school shootings because that's what hits the news — not because everyone's running around in pickup trucks shooting people. But that's the image. And Hollywood, for all its claims to be progressive and forward-thinking, is still barely out of the 1960s on this. Captain Marvel was a real opportunity — a massive Marvel film with a strong female lead — and it was fine, but it could have been great. There should be so many more examples like that, done well.

And then there's women's sports, which I'd argue in some cases is better than the men's — and yet we don't watch it.

Shannon: I have a slightly different take on sports, actually.

Matthew: Go ahead.

Shannon: I think when it comes to sports, what people want to see is the absolute maximum. I want to see a monster who's been training to the extreme — when he hits that ball, it's obliterated. You can see the atoms come apart. And I know the poor guy is probably going to collapse in about 15 minutes after the game. It's a terrible thing to do to a human body. But if you're getting 15 minutes of my attention, I want to see something extraordinary. The doped-out crazy, the record-setting, the film-can't-even-capture-them-moving performance — and then they instantly collapse. I mean, that's so messed up.

Matthew: And I've now lost every last bit of credibility I ever had. OK. But no — when my daughter, who sings opera, got invited to sing the national anthem at a minor league basketball game — apparently that's a thing — being courtside and watching those players, you see people playing for their lives. They are leaving everything on the court. The athleticism, the sheer desire — it's incredible. And I think the challenge is that too many people want the extreme spectacle. But if you're a true sports fan, you appreciate the talent of making something incredibly difficult look effortless. A female golfer, a female basketball player — a real sports fan appreciates that. We just don't have a country full of true sports fans. What we have, honestly, is a very sexist viewing culture — people who say "the men do it better, so why would I watch the women?" That says you don't actually love basketball. You love a specific version of it that's filtered through a sexist lens.

And then you look at football — these incredible athletes, some of the most gifted people in the world — and then some of them are out assaulting women, and the NFL's response is a fine and a statement. Why is that not an immediate end to their career? That would be a powerful message to the next player who thinks he can hurt someone because he's having a bad day.

Shannon: I think part of it is because we put people on pedestals. We have these double standards — if it's someone we don't care about, we hold them accountable. But if it's someone we admire, we can't fathom that they'd do something like that, so we tell ourselves it must not have happened.

Matthew: Or look at it from the institutional side — it starts in high school and college, where student athletes are handed grades for showing up, held to different standards, catered to because they're driving revenue and filling seats. And that creates a pattern that follows them. The NFL isn't protecting those players because they respect them — they're protecting a cash cow. And that's what's truly messed up. Because you could just as easily say: to be part of this, you have to adhere to basic human standards of conduct. High bar, I know — but you have to behave like a normal human being and be held accountable. Is that really so much to ask?

Shannon: And really, when you pull it all the way back, what it comes down to is capitalism and patriarchy, right? Now let's get everybody to hate us.

Matthew: Those are two of the most misunderstood concepts out there, though. The patriarchy doesn't actually serve itself well by excluding 51% of the population — everything is better with that diversity in thought and leadership. And organizations do better under capitalism when they're accountable and held to higher social standards — people want to be part of organizations doing good in the world. These systems are abused by people who benefit from keeping them narrow, and you get outcomes like the NFL protecting players with horrendous track records. And then you circle back to IT — the gaming and esports world, where the misogyny isn't subtle at all. It's not microaggressions. It's very loud, very overt, and it's baked into the culture. "You throw like a girl." That's messed up. And those words and that culture damage women and damage men too.

Shannon: Exactly — it doesn't serve women, and it doesn't serve men either. It doesn't serve boys or girls. I have a son and a daughter, and they are uniquely themselves. And when my daughter — the younger one — wanted Barbies, I had to stop and check myself. I realized I wouldn't have had a problem if my son wanted Barbies. So why was I having a reaction to my daughter wanting them? She's a kid. She gets to play with whatever she wants. I shouldn't care if she plays with trucks, and I shouldn't care if she plays with Barbies. I had to really look at myself on that one, because I wanted my kids to be independent and to pursue whatever they loved — and then I caught my own bias showing up. I had to be open to that and ask how I could support her as an individual, regardless of my own assumptions.

Parenting is wild. That could be a whole separate podcast series. But I think it serves all of us to figure out how to support individuals — not to think of it as a man problem or a woman problem, but as a human problem. We are all better when we all get to show up as our authentic, best selves. So how do we lead from that place — as managers, as CEOs, as parents, as people leading ourselves? How do we support humans in being human? When we center that, a lot of this other stuff starts to fall away.

Matthew: That is beautifully said, and it makes me feel like we actually did accomplish something here today. You wrapped it up perfectly, Shannon. I can't thank you enough. Before we go, can you tell everybody where they can find out more about you and about Mitchell Hamline?

Shannon: Sure. You can find Mitchell Hamline at mitchellhamline.edu — the website is under constant construction, but we're working on making it beautiful. You can find me on LinkedIn — search Shannon-RM-Thomas-MBA — and my personal website is inheritleadership.com.

Matthew: Love it. Thanks, Shannon. Until next time.

Shannon: Thank you.