How To Pursue Mentorship: Setting Appropriate Boundaries and Expectations With Scott Jeffrey Miller


Scott Jeffrey Miller is the Senior Advisor of Thought Leadership at FranklinCovey, a company helping organizations build successful cultures, leaders, and teams. Scott is the former CMO and EVP at FranklinCovey, a regular Keynote Speaker, and the host of the On Leadership podcast. He is also the best-selling author of Management Mess to Leadership Success and Everyone Deserves a Great Manager. His book, The Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorships, will be released in July of 2023. 


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Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

  • Scott Jeffrey Miller shares key takeaways from his newest book — and provides insight into the 13 roles mentors play in business relationships
  • Why setting boundaries for mentorship is crucial 
  • The value of establishing mentorship initiatives in small organizations — and Scott’s advice to entrepreneurs actively seeking a mentor 
  • How to differentiate between a mentor and a champion
  • Scott discusses the behaviors and values that affect corporate culture
  • Leading by example makes your company a desirable employer

In this episode…

Being mentored by someone who has achieved the goals you’ve set for yourself is a strategic way for entrepreneurs to strengthen their natural leading abilities. Finding the right person to mentor you can be a challenge if you don’t know how to initiate the relationship. How should you navigate pursuing mentorship? What expectations should you set for yourself and your mentor?

A good mentor can always be found, but a great mentor is earned. According to Scott Jeffrey Miller, there are 13 roles mentors can play in your life. The role of your mentor will vary depending on the skills you’re wanting to develop. Before committing to mentorship, both parties must communicate mutual expectations to avoid disappointment in the relationship. With the right mindset, mentorship can redefine your outlook on business and life.

On this episode of The Cyber Business Podcast, Matthew Connor is joined by Scott Jeffrey Miller, Senior Advisor of Thought Leadership at FranklinCovey to discuss why defining clear boundaries in mentorship is essential for both individuals. Scott also shares the value of mentorship in smaller organizations, defines the role and responsibility of a mentor, and explains how behaviors affect corporate culture. 

Resources mentioned in this episode:

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Matthew Matthew Connor here, host of the Cyber Business podcast, where we feature authors, successful business leaders, top law firm companies, green energy companies and more. Today, we're joined by a leader in the mentorship and leadership field, bestselling author and host of the world's largest and fastest growing podcast devoted to leadership development on Leadership with Scott Miller and the author of his latest book, The Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship.
Matthew Scott Miller, Welcome to the show, Scott.
Scott Matt, Thank you for the spotlight, the platform. Looking forward to our conversation.
Matthew Me too. Before we get get too far into it, a quick word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by That Cyber L-Y-N-X.COM. Cyberlinx is a complete technology solution provider that ensures your business not only has the most reliable and professional I.T service, but also has the right cybersecurity solution to ensure your business stays productive and safe.
Matthew Thanks Cyberlynx for your sponsorship. And now back to our show. Scott, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show. Huge fan of your work. Love your podcast. And also congratulations on five years and 260 episodes of on On Leadership. That's fantastic. Congratulations.
Scott I appreciate that. We actually have about 60 episodes taped and in the can as we've paid over 300. And we just this week moved from releasing the weekly podcast like yours, audio and video now to releasing two episodes a week. So our episodes will air on Tuesdays and Fridays. We'll move up to about 105 or so episodes a year.
Scott Wow. Looking forward to that.
Matthew That's fantastic. You know, I was going to to mention that we had a guest on on our show that I think would be a great guest for you out of four feet. He he wrote a great book. It made the The Wall Street Journal bestseller list last week. I think he be great on your show. But with so many in the can, you clearly not, you know, hurting for any guests in fact with I mean some of your guests have been fantastic that that the Chris Voss episode which you just just just dropped.
Matthew That was really great. I mean, he just had tons. So. Looking forward to seeing the next 60 that you got in the can there.
Scott We got some great ones coming up. Tony Robbins, Bernie Brown, Bill Gates. We've got a really great list coming up. Honored like you. My strategy is just to keep going, right? Just to do my best to take a less center seat and the podcast and ask good questions and let the guest bring their expertise to our listeners and viewers.
Scott Simple strategy. Keep going. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Now, you know, it's surprisingly fun. You know, we started out, you know, originally just kind of giving a platform to our our guests, you know, who who just happened to be like clients of, of our company because it, it made a lot of sense and it and it seemed like they kind of needed it to be a great thing for them.
Matthew And I tell you, it's just so much fun doing the podcast that I'm am I'm just having a blast with it. It's fun. And then I get to talk to guys like you come on, forget about it. This is fantastic. So let me ask you, your new book, which I thought was great, a super easy read and really insightful.
Matthew Can you, for those who are less fortunate, haven't had the chance to get it because it just recently came out. Can you tell us a little bit about it?
Scott Sure. So I spent my entire career, 30 years in the leadership development industry, worked for Franklin Covey as the CMO for a decade. In that 30 years was Dr. Covey. So you're kind of chief liaison with his business development side. Dr. Covey, of course, wrote The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, and I spent 24 years in the firm, and when I retired from the company in good standing, I still advise Franklin Covey.
Scott I started to spend more time writing and speaking. I've authored and released six books in the last five Don't Do that, and built a large speaking career around leadership. Marketing careers have three books coming out in the next year and a half. Don't do that. But this book is kind of like my baby, because whenever someone asks me, What are all of the podcast guests have in common, I, I also, up until recently hosted a weekly program on iHeartRadio, which was a guest interview program about great life, great career.
Scott What all these guests have in common is they all had a mentor in life. They had a series of mentors that were transition figures in their lives that gave them great feedback, steered them properly, listened, validated, pushed back on them, stopped them outright, metaphorically, pulled the keys out of the ignition, said, No, no, no, we're going for a walk.
Scott That's Crazytown. And so I wrote this book called The Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship. It's a very practical, easy, fast read. As you mentioned, I don't write seminal books like Good to Great or Built to Last Snoozer. I'm kidding. Jim Collins is a genius. I've interviewed him. I know I actually fairly well. This is a very easy book that if you're going to mentor people, I think there are 13 roles minimally, that mentors play not every call, but every Starbucks meeting, not every role where you play all the time.
Scott But I wrote this to really give mentors a better roadmap, because I don't think because you're a great leader means you're a great mentor. And a lot of the skills that make you a great mentor don't always translate will make you a great leader. Don't always translate into making you a great mentor, yet to unwind some things. And most people who are mentors, most of them are likely leaders inside organizations.
Scott Not always, but mostly.
Matthew I love that. And I think what I find really interesting is, is you take guys like like Tony Robbins, Dale Carnegie, Stephen Covey, all of them did basically what you did with with this book, you know, they take all of these these experiences, all these great leaders, all these great things, and they they distill down these these, you know, things that they have in common.
Matthew And you get these great nuggets that otherwise, how else are you going to get it? You're not going to get who gets the opportunity to interview all these people to talk to. Most people don't you can't get access to these people because they're busy doing, you know, being successful, being them. And so when guys like you do it.
Matthew And so thank you from the community. I mean, these things are they're real. They're real. They're real gems. But, you know, when you get your hands on, you know, go and you do you do a great job of kind of breaking that down and like, you know, it's 13 roles. And that's, as you point out, that's, you know, a large number.
Matthew But at the same time, it was a challenge for you to get, you know, down there. It wasn't the magical seven, right? Yeah.
Scott So you took the seven.
Matthew Yeah. There. So what are you going to do Right. So are there any in particular that kind of resonate with you? The mentor role is that you kind of, you think are most valuable or just kind of resonate with you most?
Scott Well, obviously, I think all 13 have value very quickly, so your listening and viewing audience has some context. Let me run through the 13 roles and I'll pick out a couple and maybe dive deeper and number one is the revealer. Number two is the boundary setter. Number three, the absorber number for the questioner, and then the challenger, the validator, the navigator, the flag or the distiller, the activator, the connector, and the closer.
Scott Now, again, role two is it for meeting to and role seven is for mentor. Meeting seven Mentorship usually happens in a formal setting. I think 80% of the Fortune 5000 have mentor initiatives. It's usually putting a more junior rising person with the more senior established person, but not always. Oftentimes they're in prescribed sessions, you know, once a month for 40 minutes or twice a month for 60 minutes.
Scott But lots of times there are entrepreneurial settings where you mentor. I also don't think you have to know your mentor. I think some of my greatest mentors in life, people that I never met before, but my biggest mentor in life was a man named Bruce Williams, who was a very famous radio talk show host in the eighties, long before Rush Limbaugh and Sean HANNITY and Dave Ramsey.
Scott He was a business entrepreneur that I listen to for years at nighttime, but most of my teenage friends were listening to, you know, in excess. And Cyndi Lauper, I was the nerd in bed listening to a guy talk about oral, why and credit scores and when to use an attorney and closing your home and that kind of stuff.
Scott And it launched me into a great career. But I never met Bruce Williams. He never met me and he died having no idea I was alive. And he's my biggest mentor in life to date. My point is redefine what mentorship looks like in your life now as relates to the roles I'm passionate about a lot of them. Number two, the boundary setter.
Scott I think it's very important that as a mentor, when you are entering into a mentee mentor relationship, that you with some level of courage and diplomacy, set some boundaries. It might go something like this. Let's assume wrongly, that I was going to mentor Matt on anything I can assure you would be the other way around people. But let's just say Matt was naive enough to conscript me as his mentor.
Scott I might say, Hey Matt, this is our first session. It's been nice getting to know you, your personality, your goals, what you're trying to accomplish. Very excited to hear that your lifelong goal has been to become a patent attorney. That's rare, but I hope you crush it. Let's figure out how to become a patent attorney. Sometimes it might be.
Scott Matt, You're thinking of being a chiropractor or an orthopedic surgeon. Okay, they're different. Let's talk about that. You get the point. And as a boundary setter, what you then say is, hey, Matt, I want to take about 3 minutes and have what is probably an uncomfortable conversation, 3 minutes, not 30 minutes, that you just had some boundaries for what I am willing and not willing to do as your mentor.
Scott And I think it might be uncomfortable because I'm just going to talk straight, but in 4 minutes it'll be less comfortable, I promise. And by the way, that you may also have some boundaries for me. Let me be very clear that as your mentor, I don't want to be mistaken as your champion, your ally, your reference or your sponsor.
Scott Those are different roles that I'm not comfortable doing. Mentorship is different than that. You'll have other people that will play the role of Champion, ally and sponsor. I also want to make sure that we don't ever confuse my skills as a therapist counselor, or mentor or care. Sorry, therapist or counselor. Mentorship is different now. You know, I'm married.
Scott I have three sons. I've been a leader, so I have some expertise in relationships, but I don't have certificate or a Ph.D. So let's be thoughtful about where my skills end. One other thing, Matt. I think it's important for you to know that my reputation is deeply connected to my network. I've spent 40 years carefully curating a very valuable network of people, and I would hate for you to be embarrassed or make me uncomfortable asking for any connections that I'm not willing to make.
Scott So upfront, I would ask that you stay far from asking me to set you up with my network. Most people know it's fairly significant given my, I hope, high profile role as an author and podcaster. So let's make sure we don't find ourselves in those territories. Good fences make good neighbors. You get the point right off script. And then I would invite my mentee to say, Hey, sweat boundaries.
Scott You had another probably. So I could even put two words together. But I think it's important that you don't only set the boundaries that they set them as well. Now, your boundaries might also be, I need you to be on time. I need to be on camera and should not be in your car. I you to be prepared.
Scott I need you to have a three point agenda, not nine points. Three points I need you to make and keep commitments. And if you say you're going to do X, I need you to do it and show up to do it. And so will I. The boundary setter, I think, is something that people abdicate too frequently in life.
Scott But as a mentor, because we know clear is kind from Brené Brown, clear is kind. We also know that nearly all mat, if not all, conflict in life comes from mismatched or unfulfilled expectations. So as the boundary setter, by the way, you can do this in a soft voice, you can add some frivolity to it doesn't need to be your opening salvo as you come out of the gate.
Scott Hi, Matt. Nice to meet you. First, let me set my boundaries. No, that's called no E Q right, but I do think early on if you ought to set some tenses up so that you're not in a position where your mentee thinks you're going to fund their business or you're going to refer them to the big celebrities going to get them.
Scott Taylor Swift tickets. No, no. And triple no, I can't get Taylor Swift tickets. I literally just talk with a call with someone who asked me and my vast network that I have someone who had a box in Chicago, they might be able to give them a free seat to the Taylor Swift. And I'm like, Are you okay? So you punking me?
Scott Are you putting me? I'm more likely to get you to the White House that I enter the Taylor Swift Conference Trust, right? Anyway, anyway, I do think that role is very important for everyone to play balance, encourage with a level of diplomacy that may not always be natural to people.
Matthew That's fantastic.
Scott So I keep going.
Matthew Oh, please. Yes.
Scott Of course. Our comment, please.
Matthew Well, not so much on that, but you know, and I don't want to divert. But, you know, you mentioned entrepreneurship and, you know, mentorship and entrepreneurship. I think, you know, both of those I think, are really important. And I think a lot of times when when we're talking about mentorship, it it makes people think rightly or wrongly, about the larger organizations because they do have formal programs.
Matthew And, you know, a lot of times you need that that formal guidance to just to maneuver. You know, this this large organization. But I b, you know, I'm really interested in your perspective on on mentorship when it comes to those those smaller businesses. You know, the entrepreneur with with, say, ten, 20, 50, 100, 200 employees. Yes. How do you work that in and and and, you know and where do you see that you know in those.
Scott Are arguably more crucial than larger organizations because you don't have the established systems and processes that you might have at an Oracle or a Disney or a Delta Airlines. Right. Things are a little more mom and pop and they get done with ingenuity and resourcefulness and initiative. And so I'd argue that in smaller organizations, mentorship is more necessary because you got to figure out how to get stuff done here.
Scott The culture is often driven by the owner or the entrepreneur, and they are. They may not always be sane or they may not always be great culture builders, but they're genius business builders. So I think in smaller companies it's imperative you have some kind of mentorship initiative. I also philosophically don't think your boss should be your mentor. That happens rarely and occasionally, but I don't think you should say, Hey Matt, welcome to your new employee.
Scott Scott Also, by the way, be his mentor. No, I think you need someone else in the organization that can help you figure out how to get stuff done here, How do personalities work? What's the priority? How do I differentiate between what is urgent and important? The boss says everything is urgent. Tell me about her personality and style. That's not called gossip.
Scott That's called mentorship. So I would argue that everyone needs a mentor in the organization, including the C-suite. Maybe you match up with the member of the board of directors that are coaching them on their interpersonal skills, on how to be trustworthy, on how they communicate well, or don't their level of transparency or vulnerability, whether they see like the genius in the room versus the genius maker of others in the room.
Scott So it doesn't cost any money, just, you know, put people in a pot, pick out their names and match up. Now, that might be a little bit unconventional with the right way to do it, but I think you could mix people up for three or four months stints and say, I'd like everyone to be mentoring each other. On what success looks like in this company.
Scott There's no there may be defined formula there may not. But to your question, I think that's where mentorship is the most valuable, especially with, you know, the average age, the average career age now coming in is younger, the tenure is smaller. People move around like, you know, like they dated in junior high school. I mean, that's not that's not an indictment.
Scott That's just the values are different. Now, if you want people to stay, they need to be connected. They need to have a reason to stay. They need to feel like they can thrive in the company. And so you might be especially proud of your systems and your structures, but they're probably not as clean, as clear as you think they are.
Scott And giving people a mentor in the company to help them figure out how to get stuff done and succeed here is important because getting stuff done and succeeding is different in every organization. Rarely do those strategies match well.
Matthew Well, let me ask you, I mean, and when we're talking about, you know, people moving the younger kind of. Yeah, I'd say younger employees now, they tend to move a lot faster than, you know, and and transition to different companies faster. And there's financial benefits to then find. But what advice would you give them in terms of mentorship if they're constantly moving, how would they how should they go about finding that mentor that might help them as they go from company to company?
Scott It's a complicated question because first it assumes it's a good thing to go from company to company, right? I mean, I've just written a book called Career On Course. It's the yellow book behind me. It launches in 2024. And I believe that everyone should have a very intentional strategy for their career. Now, there'll be serendipity, but you ought to have a multi-decade strategy, not just you're jumping for one more percent commission or beer tap on Thursdays, or the skatepark.
Scott I think you should be really thoughtful around picking your job based on your leader, not picking your job based on the product or compensation. But I argue your number one lens through which you select a job is who you're working for, not what or where, but who. Because your leader is going to be the biggest influence on you.
Scott And there might be another leader in the company that could be your mentor. So maybe in this organization you're being mentored on your leadership skills or your communications skills. The next company you're being mentored are your technical skills or your business acumen. Have a thoughtful process about it and find someone that's well respected in the company and go ask them, Could you be my mentor?
Scott Now, most people, when they hear that, they think, Oh crap, that seems like a lot of time. And so if I was searching for a mentor to your question, I would come in and say, Hey, Matt, nice to meet you. I saw you at the town hall last week. I just started here three weeks ago. I've asked around and you seem to be someone super credible here.
Scott I have a question to ask you before you say no. Let me finish. You seem to have be one of the people here that really knows what goes on here, how stuff gets done, how careers are built, how careers are, how they implode, how people get promoted, how people become influential. Would you be willing to mentor me on having on how to have a great career here?
Scott I'm suggesting maybe it's four or five meetings, maybe it's every two weeks for 30 minutes, not 38 minutes, not every week. But would you be willing to give me maybe a total of four or 5 hours of your time over the next three or four months to mentor me? So what I've done is I've been very specific, right?
Scott How to have a great career here. I asked for four or 5 hours over the next four months. I didn't say, Well, you mentor me for the rest of my five years here, right? Because people are busy and time is their most precious asset and honest to God. Most people want to give back. They want to lift others.
Scott They want a mentor. They just don't know what that means or how much time is that and like cancel and disappoint them. Make it clear that I want for 30 minutes sessions from you. Over the next four months, I'll come prepared. Here's my topic. Most people say, Sure, I can do that.
Matthew Yeah. Yeah. No, I'd be hard pressed to say no to that. That was a really nice clean offer and I'm flattered. Sure. And maybe we do it over lunch. And so, you know, everybody's got to eat, right? So.
Scott And maybe if I do my job as a mentee, maybe Matt decides to lengthen it, maybe he decides to be my champion, be my ally, be my referral. I didn't ask him to be. But if I play my cards right as the mentee, oh, my my real goal is to make Matt my biggest champion. And the next time a director position comes up that's on the executive team says, Hey, have you met that guy Scott over in marketing?
Scott I mean, I've been kind of mentoring him off, off record, off formal, and I really like some of his his thoughts. I mean, I think that's what your goal is. You don't express that. But if you're a savvy mentee, my job is to crush it with Matt and make him my biggest ally. I didn't ask to be my ally.
Scott I earned my way into it by by being on time, precise, well-spoken. Don't confuse my emotions with facts I'm really credible with. I choose my words carefully with the book. I teach you how to be a great mentee to the process of great mentorship.
Matthew Yeah, and I love that because I think so often people conflate Champion for Mentor and they're like, Hey, yeah, I just expected you to go to bat for me. I mean, like when they when there is an opportunity for promotion, I thought you'd be in the room, you know, championing for me, right? Getting me that job.
Scott And know that, oh, that. Because if you remember in our second session, I somewhat awkwardly very clearly said, Hey, don't take offense, but I'm agreeing to be your mentor. There's no correlation between that and me becoming your champion or ally. I think most of you will be taken aback by that. This is why you should deliver very thoughtfully.
Scott Don't be offended about that. I just these are very different roles. Champion and mentor are not the same. Just like orthodontist and attorney aren't the same.
Matthew Yeah, no, and I think that's great. The point up because it's a it actually gives it value to distinguish it as something that like respect is is earned. It's not granted just because, you know, I'm going to help you. So it doesn't mean I'm going to open every door and be that that person. You've got to earn that.
Matthew And I love that you really set that that clearly in the book. And and I think now it's it's actually really cool to get to hear you say it in your own words versus, you know just what's in the book. It's in the book is great, but this is, you know, fantastic. So let's let's switch just a little bit, if we could, you know, into the leadership portion, because, you know, I like to focus on on smaller business.
Matthew And I think that corporate culture, as you hit here, you kind of hinted on earlier, is so, so very important. And, you know, I think adding that mentoring to it, I, I think and I'm curious what your your view on this is. I think a lot of the problem that that businesses are experiencing with with quiet quitting is that they lack the corporate culture of of really truly valuing their employees and giving them that environment that that is there to nurture them.
Matthew And I know personally not to go off on my own thing, but I think the business, you know, when people say it's not personal, it's business bullcrap. There's nothing more personal than business. That's how you take care of yourself. You feed your family with business. Business very personal. So if you're creating a culture that that is conducive to, you know, a happy, healthy environment where people can grow and strive, I think that that combats this quiet quitting.
Matthew But, you know, you're kind of you're much more of an expert on on all of this that the theories the strategies that you know the modern time. What is your take on that on the quick within the corporate culture and am I conflating things what what's your take?
Scott Yeah, no, I think you're right on I think I think for a while culture became a buzzword and it was something that the CEO had to account to to his or her board, no matter how big the company was. Oh, it's not a nice to have now. It is a crucial, crucial aspect of people satisfaction, engagement. I mean, you look at the people you interview now for jobs, they if they're savvy, they want to know two things Who will I be reporting to and what is she like and what is the culture in this organization like?
Scott And I like to go talk to some other people and learn about it. The pandemic wrecked carnage on this world. A million people died in the U.S. It's not debatable. I know two of them that died, but it also did. Was it reset everybody's values in life? Everybody's rebalanced out. Values are shifted, right? What's important and I think most people came out of this realizing that they don't want to work for a jerk.
Scott They don't want to do less work. They don't want to just work for a paycheck. Or if they do, they compartmentalize it and they realize that their avocation is not their vocation, and you're never going to get them to give their heart because they they're working for just a paycheck and you're not going to change that person. Likely.
Scott It's a small percentage of the world, especially in the Western hemisphere. We're capitalists. People want now to know that what they're doing is meaningful, that they're adding something of significance back, that their time is limited. Right. Whether they're religious or spiritual or agnostic or whatever. They want to know that their time here is meaningful. And so every leader listen up, Oh, you have a culture.
Scott And it was created very intentionally. Good or bad in your culture is in essence, how the vast majority of people behave. The vast majority of time. If most of your people gossip and back bite and nit pick and criticize and diminish others, that's your culture. If your culture is one where people are loyal to the person, they don't speak to Spirit about people behind their back.
Scott But they have tough, high courage conversations. They give both reinforcing and redirecting feedback, and they are all vulnerable and their own strengths and weaknesses. Then that is your culture. Culture is set very intentionally by the leaders and their behaviors, period. So what you should be doing leaders, owners, founders, you should be sitting down with your core leadership group deciding what are the behaviors we want to model, because what we do gets replicated.
Scott If we want our company to stop being a gossip culture, then none of us could ever gossip ever again. If we want people to start receiving feedback, then every one of us has to demonstrate that we are open to feedback on our own skills and we don't deflated, deflect it, dispute it, deny it. We just say, thanks, Matt.
Scott Ouch. That was hurt. That hurt. But thank you. Thanks for sharing that with me. Tell me more about that. Like when I'm doing that, what do you think is going on with me or any number of other behaviors? Right. And every one of your leaders has to model those behaviors. And all my leadership. Look, you see behind me, I'm somewhat unpopular in the leadership business because I don't think everyone should be a leader of people, just like not everyone should be an anesthesiologist or a commercial airline pilot.
Scott Not everyone should be a leader of people. And if you are, then you have to very specifically model all those behaviors that you want to see in your team. And it's exhausting. And it's more exhausting post-pandemic because people are watching you more carefully because their options are greater. People aren't hostages anymore. They can move around, but they don't move around when they find a leader who loves them and a culture that they can thrive in.
Scott And those things do not happen accidentally. They happen very purposely. But I would argue that as a leader, depending on where you want your company, what level of founder, owner or whatever, I'd argue that the technical expertise you bring to your organization, the skill set you bring, that's technically it's second to your ability to develop relationships. This is the number one skill every leader needs.
Scott These are power skills, not soft skills. The ability to have high courage conversations, the ability to offer apologies, the ability to admit when you're wrong, the ability to call someone aside and give them feedback on their blindspots in a way that does not diminish their self esteem with their self confidence, but raises their loyalty to you. Loyalty. It's these are the number one skills that leaders bring to their jobs because people don't quit that job.
Scott They quit bad bosses and corrupt cultures. And it sounds like a pithy human resource statement, but it's absolutely true.
Matthew I completely agree. And I think, you know, much like I think you write with the pandemic, how it changed people's values. I think much like a you know, a recession is actually a good thing because it helps your businesses and people trim the fat and make sure that that, you know, the strong survive. And if you weren't strong, you're not going to survive.
Matthew Right. If you're not if you weren't doing things well enough, your business might just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Fine. It could have been the greatest business ever. But if it can't survive the recession, let alone a depression, it might not be the right business. And so I think you're right. And I think that that's, you know, if you will, it's it's almost a a human recession or a culture, You know, corporate culture, recession, you know, kind of a fact that the pandemic had where.
Matthew Yeah.
Scott No, sorry. Please continue.
Matthew Yeah. No, we're that's what you know, people now come through that and they're like, you know what? You're right. I want to work for a good company, you know, And you get people like, you know, not to pick on them because Elon Musk is is, you know, a genius, a brilliant. But I wouldn't want to work for one of his companies because, you know, but, you know, love him.
Matthew He's going to get us to Mars. He's you know, I love his car. We've got three of his cars. You know, I think they create fantastic products, but I don't think that he creates fantastic corporate cultures. And I think it's going to be very hard to work for somebody like that. And like you said, it bleeds down that that culture is created from the leadership.
Matthew So it's I think it's really interesting. So to your.
Scott Point, I don't buy his products. I don't invest in his companies, and I don't probably respect those that tolerate his leadership style because I think he is a train wreck when it comes to understanding interpersonal relationships and people and responsibility. With deference to his technical genius. I mean, that's that's that's a strong statement coming from a Scott Miller to Elon Musk.
Scott I am super passionate and and intentional about all your listeners and those of you that have a business in the cyber world, the technology world, the digital world, you likely are creative geniuses and your technical competency would make my SAT score look really embarrassing or achy, I guess. But you need to develop your relationship skills. This is why people will come to work with you because they feel respected, they feel heard, they feel seen, they feel valued.
Scott They feel like their contribution matters, that they trust you enough to to earnestly ask for feedback on their blindspots. It's why most people don't get feedback is because they've proven they're incapable of accepting it and implementing it. So as a leader, you've got to model that, You've got to model that. You actually ask for feedback. And here's the problem in this.
Scott Most people won't give their boss feedback. What a quick way to create a career cul de sac. Tell their boss that their town has town town hall slide deck suck. Oh yeah, boss, it was that 28th slide with the longitudinal study from Harvard. That was the one that you crushed it? No, it sucked. Boss, you ought to have a fireside chat.
Scott Have someone interview you. Don't get up there for 2 hours and show me a card or a slide deck. You need to model all of the behavior you want to see in your people. It it's extraordinarily valuable advice. If you want to build a culture where people choose to come and choose to stay and choose to give their all.
Matthew Well and.
Scott I look, I just I don't understand. Quiet, quitting, Quiet, quitting. First of all, I don't understand it. I know what it is, but no one that works for me is quiet quitting because I'm constantly as a leader, focused on what is their level of engagement. And I can't I can't change that. What I can't change is the culture.
Scott I can change the conditions where people choose a higher level of engagement. I also can create the conditions where they choose a lower level of engagement and I guess start quiet quitting or quit or sabotage or worse, quit. But stay. The leader creates the conditions for people to choose a high or low level of engagement.
Matthew That's brilliant. And I think when you look at the history of the tech world, right, you get these you get these tech geniuses, you know, who were who were not necessarily social geniuses and and yet their products, you know, created huge businesses around them. And as that grew out in Silicon Valley and became, you know, more and more prolific and you get this these massive corporate cultures where their their idea of of taking care of employees, where nap pods and having, you know, cool food and the and the offices was well you know, it's fantastic but that that is so surface level they don't get to what you're talking about here and because they stay
Matthew stuck in this there's I don't think calling it a tech culture is fair to technology but but let's call it a tech culture instead of a human focused culture. And maybe that's it. It's a tech focused culture, not a human focused culture, which I think is is what you're saying. And it's hugely important.
Scott So I would advise them to say maybe you need to be the chief technology officer and founder and owner, and they need to hire someone more like me to build the culture so that people choose to stay, choose to thrive, choose to refer their friends. Right? They choose to bring their best talent. That's the ultimate compliment, right? Is when someone says to their friends, You should apply for a job here.
Scott That's the ultimate measure of high engagement.
Matthew Yeah, totally agree, Scott. I could keep this up all day. And I know you are a super busy man with an I still don't know how you do it. All the books, all the podcasts, other, it's it's absolutely spectacular. But this is a fantastic if you could tell tell folks where they can find out where they can buy your book, where they can find out more about you.
Scott Yeah. So the book is The Ultimate Guide to Great Mentorship is in softcover audio and digital. You can buy it anywhere books are sold. Amazon, Barnes Noble, Books-a-million independent bookstores you can visit great mentor ship dot com. That's the website where there is additional videos and mentor kits and a mentor certification process on there as well. I look forward to my next book out called Career on Course comes out in February.
Scott Ten. Strategies to Take Your Career From Accidental to Intentional. And then I've got a couple more, as you would expect in the beyond that. So I appreciate the spotlight today. Thank you. Man.
Matthew Oh, thank you. And, you know, of course, I'd love to have you back when your new book comes on. Then awesome. I'll hold you to it. Not that I could, but I'd love to. And this was. This was such a treat. Thanks, Scott. Appreciate it. You got it.

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